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Godfather Liberty Dollar Coin Value

Liberty Dollar Trial and Coin Value

by Bill Rounds Esq. on March 28, 2011

Reading time: 9 – 15 minutes

What Liberty Dollar Should Have Learned From The Godfather

Don Corleone doesn’t ask a second favor once he’s been refused the first. Instead, he will make you an offer that you can’t refuse.

Godfather Liberty Dollar Coin Value

The recent conviction of Bernard von Nothaus for making and circulating Liberty Dollars has little to do with tyranny and oppression, and a lot more to do with tactical and practical mistakes made by the Liberty Dollar organization.  Although many would argue that tyranny is the logical and philosophical cause of Liberty Dollar’s trouble, for the most part there are practical ways to exercise liberty, avoid making powerful enemies, and avoid incurring their wrath.

Philosophical Arguments Don’t Address Actual Power

I am not addressing the philosophical or ideological arguments for two reasons. First, the state of monetary law is almost nonsensical. Court opinions, federal statutes and the Constitution are logically inconsistent with one another. As a practical matter it is worthless to try and argue with the reasoning behind arbitrary and capricious rules.

Until a law is changed, it is not recommended to break it, even if you think the source of its power is illegitimate.  I imagine that a lot of characters thought that the source of Don Corleone’s power was illegitimate too.  But that does not change the fact that his power was very real (in the movie) and that such power must be respected.

That power will endure until enough people are convinced otherwise.  So, even though Dr. Vieira clearly reveals the inconsistent and tyrannical nature of current monetary law (See Dr. Vieira’s Pieces of Eight pg. 1532), we will assume for the sake of argument that such laws are legitimate because we must deal with the actual power that they have.

Must Be Persuasive

Second, unlike Libya, the US is still a country where we are free to persuade anyone to change any law or replace any political leader.  Failure to convince enough people is more a function of poor salesmanship than tyranny. Many Austrian economists have historically been unsuccessful at persuading courts, legislatures and neighbors. They are getting better.  In any strategy, including legal strategy, it is important not to dismiss the actual power that your opponent has.  Doing so will limit practical solutions.

Liberty Dollar Fraud

The Liberty Dollar case was about fraud. It was not about using gold or silver in commerce, it wasn’t about protecting government power, or even about using private money. There are all kinds of alternate currencies in circulation in the US. Ithaca Hours, Potomacs, gift certificates, and Chuck E. Cheese tokens can all be used to barter and transact instead of legal tender coins and bills. It is not illegal for a dentist to take payment in chickens or in sacks of potatoes. Liberty Dollar was investigated and indicted because it could, and did, fool some people into thinking it was something that it was not.

Liberty-Dollars-coin value

Resemblance to Legal Tender Coins

Two of the statutes that the jury thought were violated were 18 USC 485 and 18 USC 486.  In a nutshell, to violate these statutes, someone has to make and use medallions that resemble official US government coin and intend to fool someone into thinking it is official US government coins.  It is very unlikely that well informed Austrian economists, or even Ben Bernanke and friends, were fooled or were intended to be fooled.

Unfortunately, the jury pool and the American public are not always well informed Austrian economists.  Thus the likelihood that someone might be fooled by the Liberty Dollar is much higher, and the intent can only be determined by other actions.  The Department of Justice (DoJ) thought that there were too many elements of the Liberty Dollar design that might confuse an unsuspecting person and that there was intent to fool some people. A unanimous jury of peers agreed.

liberty-dollar coin value

Notable Similarities Between Liberty Dollar Medallions and US Government Coins

Engraved with a “$” symbol;

Engraved with the word “Dollar”;

“$5 Liberty Dollar” is the same size as a Kennedy 1/2 Dollar;

“Trust In God” engraved on Liberty Dollars;

Engraved with the word “Liberty”;

Several images similar to those commonly used in US coins are engraved on Liberty Dollars;

“USA” is engraved on some Liberty Dollars.

To see all of those similarities, check out the Indictment, paragraphs 35-44.  This was apparently enough to show the resemblance.

Liberty Dollar Indictment

Liberty Dollar Jury Verdict Form

Liberty Dollar Coin Value Dime

Problems With Liberty Dollar Coin Value

The most serious issue with Liberty Dollars is probably the coin value and the denomination minted on the medallion. The value of the metal in the Liberty Dollar medallions was below what appeared to be the Federal Reserve Note (FRN) value minted on their face. The “$10” medallion contained less than $10 in FRNs of silver at the time they were in circulation. When the value of the silver in the medallion rose above $10, the medallions were recalled, and recast with a “$20” denomination. The same process would occur if the FRN value of the metal again exceeded the minted denomination.

It would not be hard for someone in the lowest quartile of intelligence to be offered a “$10” Liberty Dollar and think that the intrinsic metal value was $10 in FRN and that it might be a legal tender coin. The prosecutors and a unanimous jury agreed.

Some Actions Could Show Intent

A very important element of the indictment is the intent to defraud. There is no criminal trial in the world where anybody knows for certain the intent of anyone else. We can only deduce intent from surrounding circumstances. Therefore, like any jury trial, it is a complete crapshoot as to what the jury is going to think the intent of the defendant is.  The politicians may consider gambling a harmless vice, but it is dangerous when your liberty is on the line.

Liberty Dollar actively encouraged merchants who traded Liberty Dollars to give them to unsuspecting customers as change.  An unsuspecting customer might receive a “$10 Liberty Dollar” medallion instead of $10 in Federal Reserve Notes.  The value of the silver in those medallions was less than $10 FRN,  so the unsuspecting customer would receive less than the value they thought they were receiving.  It appears that such an exchange was viewed by the prosecution, and the jury, as evidence of an intent to defraud.

Banking Is Boring

Another critical error might have been the amount of money that was being made by Liberty Dollar and its affiliates. Banking and bullion are supposed to be boring businesses. It is very difficult to make exciting profits on coin value. Liberty Dollar profits might have drawn attention. There is nothing wrong with finding a way to make enormous profits trading on coin value. You just need to be prepared to explain yourself very well. Liberty Dollar could not explain themselves well enough.

Avoid Trial

Given the unpredictability of a jury, it is advisable to avoid a jury trial in most situations. Only 2% of cases that are filed are ever brought before a jury. The certainty of an agreement is far easier to manage. Since the vast majority of US citizens are unconvinced of the fundamental flaws of our monetary policy, Liberty Dollar would have been wise to avoid a trial as well. They were given a chance to do just that.

The Department of Justice and the Mint issued a warning that they would prosecute the use and distribution of Liberty Dollars in 2006.  Consider this like Don Corleone “politely” asking a favor.  Rather than grant this favor to the very people who have the power to indict you, Liberty Dollar refused this favor, and were quite obnoxious about it, even though their legal counsel advised them to take it seriously.

Godfather Liberty Dollar Coin Value

Certainly Don Corleone would have followed up with an offer they couldn’t refuse.  The DoJ did too.  The offer was an indictment which Liberty Dollar couldn’t refuse.   Had they complied with this “favor” they probably would not have had any legal problems.

What the Case Was Not About

Importantly, this case is not about trading or bartering in silver, gold, chickens or potatoes.  It is not about offering or accepting silver instead of Federal Reserve notes at a store.  It is not about the warehouse receipts for silver or about digital gold or silver transactions at all. It was not about the fact that Liberty Dollar was minting medallions out of silver to distribute into the marketplace. In fact, minting their own medallions was completely unnecessary because there are already many, many kinds of silver medallions that are perfectly legal to own, use, trade, barter with, and utter like Buffalo Silver Rounds, Canadian Silver Maple Leafs, Austrian Philharmonics, and Sunshine Mint medallions.  All of these activities are far from the kinds of things that anyone would prosecute.  Especially if they are taking care not to upset powerful enemies.

Conclusion

Like the Hollywood movie executive, in the Godfather, Liberty Dollar was asked a favor. Mr. Woltz was asked to cast Johnny Fontaine in a movie. Liberty Dollar was asked to stop using their confusing silver medallions. When Woltz refused, he woke up with an unpleasant surprise in his bed. He couldn’t refuse to cast Johnny in the movie. When Liberty Dollar refused the favor, they woke up with an indictment. They couldn’t refuse to stop using Liberty Dollar coins.

In his passion and zeal, Mr. von Nothaus failed to assess the power of his opponent intelligently.  It ended up costing him dearly. Had he gone around using already existing silver rounds and offering them as payment instead of his own minted version, he would have been miles away from any legal trouble. Had he used medallions that contained none of the state regalia, like “USA”, “$10″, and other familiar markings, he probably would have remained free although if he had used actual legal tender like Kahre he still may have had issues.  Had he transacted only with warehouse receipts for silver bullion, he would have avoided legal trouble.  If he had only traded digital silver like with GoldMoney, backed by bullion in the vault, he could have avoided legal issues.  Maybe if he had seen the Godfather a few more times, he would have realized that when you refuse a favor, you are going to get an offer you can’t refuse.

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38 comments

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Bill Rounds, Esq. is a California attorney. He holds a degree in Accounting from the University of Utah and a law degree from California Western School of Law. He practices civil litigation, domestic and foreign business entity formation and transactions, criminal defense and privacy law. He is a strong advocate of personal and financial freedom and civil liberties. This is merely one article of 123 by .
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{ 33 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Tony Lewis Jr. March 29, 2011 at 8:54 am

Well done Trace, well done.

2 Stephanie March 29, 2011 at 10:27 am

F* right, Dude. I was shocked again to see the similarities between Liberty Dollars and US coinage. Noooooo!

I warned him a few years back when I found out he was putting $10 on medallions worth quite a bit less than that. If he had followed the advice of Hugo Price Salinas, he would not have “flashpoint” issues. Gresham’s Law. The point where the metal value of the piece goes above the face value, and that gets withdrawn from circulation. Or sent back to him to be reminted with a higher value. The arrogant F*. I thought I had the e-mail around here somewhere… I must have deleted it in disgust. However, I did find one in which I warned people on my list to watch out for this guy.

Bernard wrote:
——————-
To make matters worse, during October of 1998, silver averaged below $5 per ounce! (Chart: http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/goldyear_new2.cgi). So while we had a great margin between silver (cost of materials) and face value (retail), we didn’t have very many supporters (customers)! All we had was margin because very few people took the currency seriously. And their biggest compliant was “Why should I pay twice the price for silver?” Of course that question was dispelled with our classic paper, which positioned the Liberty Dollar as a currency, not as an investment or even as a substitute for buying silver.

While some talking heads in 1998 said that people would not accept an ounce for $10 with only $5 of silver in it, we proved them very wrong. Likewise, again today there are the same talking heads who say that people will not accept an ounce for $20 with only $10 of silver in it, or a half ounce for $10! So people just don’t get it. Unfortunately, some just don’t want to get it.
——————–

Showcasing the above text to my readers, I wrote in January 2006:
——————–
There are some things wrong with it. First off, when something goes
drastically wrong in the economy and people move to silver and gold, the numismatic value of coins tend to disappear, and instead, the value of the metal content of the coin tends to assert itself. A very mild version of this was the debasement of our silver coins made before 1965 and the subsequent withdrawal from circulation (because the metal content of the coin became worth more than the face value of the coin). Another, even more mild example is the penny that went from 95% copper to 97.5% zinc and only 2.5% copper. The copper content became worth more than a penny! What would happen if silver were to go to $15 an ounce? This is why you don’t want to denominate any silver or gold in any currency. Just say something like, “The price of this MountainSmith Caprock fanny pack is going for 1.75 ounces of silver.” Price everything in ounces, and you won’t have an extra layer of
people working to exchange money from one currency to another or from silver to paper money.

You ought not to pay $20 for $10 worth of silver, especially when it becomes important to get as much as you can for your money. Typically, old silver coins (American dimes, quarters, and half-dollars) give you the best deal, dollars-for-ounces, with a minimum of a premium over spot price (spot price being how much silver is going for per ounce on the market at a given point in time) compared to silver bullion rounds or bars. At Endgame, silver is silver.
——————

I told you so, Bernard! I’m vindicated. Now, because you’re going to be a felon, I don’t know when you’ll get your right to own firearms again. Probably not until after America has collapsed.

3 Jake March 29, 2011 at 11:44 am

Emailed to myself…will read later

4 Bron Suchecki March 31, 2011 at 1:53 am

Excellent unemotional analysis of the case and history behind it.

5 Putzy March 31, 2011 at 4:12 am

yeah well if that doesn’t set the story straight..Thx and – Thx to GATA for the linky! ;)

6 Matt April 1, 2011 at 5:41 pm

FINALLY! someone who actually gets it. This paper is spot on as to what went on in court in the Liberty Dollar Trial, and I know because I was one of the jurors who found Mr. Von Nothous guilty. I agree 100% with Norfed’s opinion of the Federal Reserve and their opinion of our monetary system. With that said we are still a nation of laws. If you do not like them you can work to change them or you can break them but be warned, we are duty bound as jurors to apply the law to the facts in the case as we found them without partiality. The fact that the Defense got the Jury that they wanted, (middle age, white, conservative males with guns) and we came to a unanimous decision in less that two hours ought to tell you something. After two weeks of researching everything Liberty Dollar on the internet, I can say I still would have found him guilty. Bernard Von Nothous will ultimately go down in history as a patriot albeit a dumb one.

7 Bill Rounds J.D. April 2, 2011 at 11:09 am

Matt,
Thanks for your comment. It gives some more good insight into the case. I had no idea that the jury was so demographically favorable to Mr. von Nothaus.

Bill

8 Charles April 5, 2011 at 1:20 pm

I wish the AG would show as much concern for Counterfit Rare coins made in China that are flooding into this country as he did for this Liberty Dollar thing. This was like kicking a kitten while a Tiger was running wild in your yard. At least Holder can get a job as a Stedman look alike when he looses his job at Justice.

9 Andrew April 5, 2011 at 6:39 pm

“With that said we are still a nation of laws. If you do not like them you can work to change them or you can break them but be warned, we are duty bound as jurors to apply the law to the facts in the case as we found them without partiality.”

Our time as a “nation of laws” passed long ago, and you and Mr. Rounds of all folks should know this. So I must firmly disagree, Sir, with your implicit notion that it is even remotely possible for us commoners to effect a successful repeal of the innumerable laws that blatantly violate the Constitution and must disagree as well with your explicit notion that you were somehow duty bound to apply an unjust law without partiality. What duty? Certainly no moral or ethical duty I can think of. If you were a juror and had any gumption, you could have exercised the your right to refuse to apply a law that you believe is unconstitutional or inherently unjust.

I acknowledge that privacy and discretion, rather than judicial activism, was the point of Mr. Round’s article, but your sanctimony grated.

10 Bill April 6, 2011 at 8:00 am

Nothaus basically wanted the seigniorage.

When silver was $11/ounce he’d happily sell you a silver ‘Liberty Dollar’ for $20, or as low as $16 if you signed up as an affiliate and bought enough coins.

Then he would encourage you to give that as change instead of a $20 paper note (20% instant profit for you)

If he had called them ‘quatloos’ instead he’d only have to fear the wrath of Paramount…

11 LD Supporter April 7, 2011 at 8:53 am

Matt April 1, 2011 at 5:41 pm

“FINALLY! someone who actually gets it. This paper is spot on as to what went on in court in the Liberty Dollar Trial, and I know because I was one of the jurors who found Mr. Von Nothous guilty. I agree 100% with Norfed’s opinion of the Federal Reserve and their opinion of our monetary system. With that said we are still a nation of laws. If you do not like them you can work to change them or you can break them but be warned, we are duty bound as jurors to apply the law to the facts in the case as we found them without partiality. The fact that the Defense got the Jury that they wanted, (middle age, white, conservative males with guns) and we came to a unanimous decision in less that two hours ought to tell you something. After two weeks of researching everything Liberty Dollar on the internet, I can say I still would have found him guilty. Bernard Von Nothous will ultimately go down in history as a patriot albeit a dumb one.”

Matt,
Can you quickly prove to me that you were one of the jurors?

Really quickly:
1.Describe the two sculptures on either side of the courtroom entrance. They are very unique.
2.What was your juror number?

Once you confirm this, maybe we can communicate about your “bound duty” and the stupidity of BvNH.

Thanks!

12 Ben April 7, 2011 at 9:26 am

I agree with this article… BUT… this FBI press release is scary whether you’re trading Liberty Dollars or chickens:

“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Tompkins said in announcing the verdict. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country,”

http://www.fbi.gov/charlotte/press-releases/2011/defendant-convicted-of-minting-his-own-currency

13 John April 7, 2011 at 11:21 am

Andrew,

Well written, saved me the trouble.

14 Matt April 7, 2011 at 3:20 pm

Andrew, Feel free to move to a middle eastern country where “Mob Rules” If that is what you want. I hope you are NEVER selected for Jury Duty or the victims will never get justice. People who think like you make great dictators.

15 Dan April 7, 2011 at 6:27 pm

Dear Matt: Pray tell, whom do you consider victoms in the Liberty Dollar matter? I too agreed with Liberty Dollar’s opinion on our monetary system, not 100%, as you say for yourself, but predomenantly. Now I may loose my life savings as I put it all in Liberty Dollars, mostly with great expectations for silver, but also to support the ideals I admired.

If you want justice for victoms as you say, why have your actions worked toward taking everything from me?

16 DaveGillie April 8, 2011 at 5:10 am

That last comment about KAHRE, STILL being in trouble for using actual LEGAL Tender, illustrates just how IDITOTIC it is to Blame the VICTIM for having done SOME thing wrong.
The FEDS (wife beater) were going to beat BVNH for having figured out how to live as a FREE person no matter what excuse they needed!!!

(and Liberty Dollar clearly is NOT counterfeit, no matter what a faked out Jury says. While Jury are important and CRITICAL, they are not GOD, and we still have our own brains and duty, to decide some things)

17 LD Supporter April 8, 2011 at 7:15 am

So… Juror Matt,

You walked by those sculptures at least 30 times. You could not have missed them.

18 Ron April 8, 2011 at 10:00 am

It never ceases to amaze me that people are incapable of understanding the element of time. The above article might be correct about the instantaneous value of a Liberty Dollar at the time it was traded, and the prosecution dwelt upon that to convince the jurors that fraud had been committed. But, if there was fraud then there were victims. Where are the victims? My understanding is that there was only one reluctant witness who testified that they received a Liberty Dollar not understanding what it was. Why were there not hordes of victims testifying about their loss? It’s because there WAS no loss (the only loss was incurred by owners of Liberty Dollars when the government stole them). One cannot beg or pry with a crowbar the Silver Libertys from the hands of those who took them. Not a one of them feels defrauded or would testify that they incurred a loss. That is because Bernard von NotHaus understood the concept of time value and how the government/banking complex uses it to rob people. And the author of this article has the gall to talk about intent. If anything can be said of Bernard’s intent, it is that he intended to enrich his ‘victims’ against their will (assuming that they did not understand monetary issues). What he did was akin to delivering a load of rough opals (which look like plain old rocks) to someone who ordered gravel. His ‘victims’ were expecting a ‘rock’ (Federal Reserve Note) and got an opal (Silver Liberty). That’s why none of the ‘victims’ are complaining. Now, what is the intent of the government/banking complex? They KNOW when they give the people their paper money that it is going to be worth less in very short order. THEY are the beneficiaries of that lost value and they know it. They are intentionally defrauding the people (in their ignorance) with their fiat money. Bernard was intentionally enriching them (in their ignorance) with his real money (not instantaneously, but over time, and a short time at that). The jurors in this case bought the prosecutions presentation of the ‘snapshot in time’ (the instant of the transaction) as Bernard’s intent and probably did not have his true intent explained to them. His true intent was to provide the ‘victim’ with something that kept its value over time as opposed to the banker’s intent to steal that value over time. An intelligent juror would have understood that the intent of the laws brought into question was to prevent people from being tricked out of their value, not being tricked into keeping it.

19 LD Supporter April 8, 2011 at 11:26 am

So Matt the Juror et al,

The LD is, first and foremost, a political statement.

I am not sure whether you actually perused the evidence presented to the court, but included among it was a short pamphlet which explained in some detail the following:

The Coinage Act of 1792, including the definition of a “dollar” as 371.25 grains of silver.

The fraudulent Federal Reserve System

The voluntary Liberty Dollar monetary, and the contrast with the mandatory legal tender fiat, FRN system.

The 1st Amendment petition for honest money printed on the front of every LD Certificate.

The monthly audits of the silver and gold which backed the certs and E-Libertys, as well as the contrast with both the fed and Ft. Knox, which have not been audited.

How about the web address and phone number listed on the LD, along with the metal weight and content. Did you notice that?

How about PVBC? Does that ring a bell?

Private Voluntary Barter Currency

Still waiting on that juror validation…

20 Mike April 8, 2011 at 7:58 pm

Maybe that “juror” is doing now what he should have done while I was in the courthouse watching some of them looking like they were not at all interested while the defense was presenting, but paying rapt attention while the government was presenting.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh when I said that it was obvious to me that their God was government, but I don’t think so…I think I nailed it. How else could anyone come to the conclusion, beyond a reasonable doubt, that any of the charges held water?

A blind man or woman could have told them it was not government money and most sixth graders know that a counterfeiter does not try to make his “money” different and more costly to create that what she/he is counterfeiting.

Just saying,

21 John Burnette April 10, 2011 at 6:52 am

Speaking of framing the discussion…

The remarks AFTER the trial by the US attorney makes it clear that this case was about defending the currency monopoly that FRN currently enjoy. As NORFED made it their stated goal to point out that FRN have little to no inherent value save a shared acceptance as currency in the minds of the public, it is completely to be expected that the government would ruthlessly defend that monopoly.

BUT, and this is what makes me smile, they cannot talk openly about the real need to defend this currency without risking a run on the FRN dollar. By pretending their motives were something they were clearly not, and then crowing that they have prevented an economic terrorist from wrecking their house of cards they only point out to the thoughtful observer that the FRN currency is, in fact, a house of cards.

Particularly with the movements to state authorized hard currency, within a couple of years there will be debit cards denominated in silver or gold. No doubt they will have the ability to effect withdrawals in FRN denominated amounts making all the “reasons” for the von NotHaus conviction irrelevant.

I suspect that every reader of this discussion will be an early adopter of such a card and yet the existence of such solid currency will be much more likely to spark hyper inflation.

von NotHaus, at least in my opinion, is in trouble today because he had the courage to speak the truth to power. That those in power often respond in a brutish manner is the reason it takes courage to do it.

But if I had the capital required, I’d be out there minting 1 ounce silver rounds labeled “NORFED Legal Defense” and on the obverse “NOT US Currency” I’d pay double the spot price of silver just for the collectable aspect of the “non” coin.

Ultimately the original article which started this discussion is misguided. But it tells me something that all of the readers thus far have not challenged the comparison of our government to a ruthless band of organized criminals.

22 ArchAngel April 12, 2011 at 12:46 pm

The victims in the Liberty Dollar Scam are any and all of the people who accepted Liberty Dollar Tokens in place of US currency.

Each and every instance is fraud and theft.

Just because thousands did not show up at the trial does not mean they don’t exist. Either the dealers kept all of their tokens and never passed any on, or most have been ‘circulated’ in numerous acts of fraud.

If Von Nuthouse had not printed Dollar on his coins or made them look less like existing coins he would not be facing prison right now.

But he did, and the way it is sold on the website showed his intent to defraud. The site told people to spend for profit. This implies passing off Liberty Dollar Tokens where a Liberty Dollar is equal to a US Dollar.

FRAUD!

23 LD Supporter April 14, 2011 at 8:03 pm

ArchAngel,

Did you read post 18 by Ron?

I am one of those victims to whom Ron refers.

You will not find ANY victims based upon your description.

Think about it:

How can the charge be fraud, when the intent was enrichment?

Conversely, in reference to the FRN, when the intent is fraud, where is the enrichment?

Please show me evidence that an individual with a $10 FRN saved in her piggy bank from 2006 until 2011 is somehow “richer” than the individual who traded a $10 FRN for one troy ounce of .999 Ag.

Beyond the “conviction,” can you prove that fraud exists on the part of BvNH and his co-conspirators, myself among them?

24 Brad April 15, 2011 at 1:54 pm

So, Matt the juror,
You convicted a dumb patriot because you were duty bound? Sorry for your lack of logic there. You must not own a fly swatter instead you must use a shot gun to kill your flies. It is so obvious that this guy was in business for years and now that silver is to infinity and beyond, he gets busted and his metal gets swooped. Why didn’t they warn him? Or work with him? They are the criminals that this patriot exposed and they stole from him. He was not a dumb patriot for taking this risk. He was brave. And you helped them, you are not a patriot for enforcing laws that are wrong. You used the same logic Nazi’s used at the Nuremberg trials; they said they were just following orders when they were told kill people. You followed orders too.

25 jerry April 28, 2011 at 11:13 am

In this article, I observed, in the beginning, when you stated your ‘points’ or criteria, you missed one very very important thing about what is placed on the coins. I am referring to the dollar signature, the ‘S’ shape with the north/south bar or rather should I say BARS. Nowadays, we only see 1 bar thru the ‘S’ in the dollar signature. When I was growing up, there where 2. Symbols mean EVERYTHING. As we are all learning now, our fiat currency (government FORCED as is my opinion) is not backed by any collateral ie; gold or silver, potatoes or nose rings. I could go on for days about all this, and so my recommendation would be for you/the readers to go to http://www.newpeopleorder.com and read the book presented there by Rowan and McDonald called most aptly ” They Own it All” (including YOU). It is probably the most simplest, writtin in the common language assessment of the how, where, when and why the currency became, as they expressed ‘ toxic’. I am not an intellectual, just a down home dirt farmer, and even I could comprehend what they are saying. The book is less the rhetoric and more the facts supported by common sense for the common man/woman. As an example, the 2 bars headed north/south thru the ‘S’ are portrayed as
the “Pillars of Hercules” which HOLD THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE TEMPLE. Our temple is the entire basis of the currency/financial system. It is the authors assessment, that if you remove one of the pillars, the foundation becomes weakened and unsustainable for it is based now, primarily on form with NO substance or collateral. Ah yes…..are the natives now becoming MORE restless? Have gold and especially ma friend ” Long- (John) Silver” broken new highs.? Is the Bernak, in his infamous wisdom(slated to be the wisest nut in the crate) for whatever reason, intentionally attempting to wreak havoc …intentionaly…on the currency.? And WHY would anyone want to do such a vile thing. As history shows, allllllllllll fiat currency’s die and our days are numbered. Me…… I believe that Americans, through their decadence, denial and apathy from being given the easy life(socialist entitlements, like for instance 48 million people now on the food stamps program) will refuse to awaken in time to this convoluted, intended mess we are in, and that nothing short of divine intervention or possibly a grande display from mother nature could ever wake them/US up. In closing, our little group of awakened ones have a mantra. Long range dehydrated food storage, silver bullion, and the lead to protect it. Prepare yourself people. If the Japan thing wasn’t enough to motivate you….what will ? in
” the land of ‘ it can’t happen here’ “

26 LD Supporter April 30, 2011 at 11:06 am

“Matt the Juror” never returned here because he simply “wasn’t there.”

Too bad he turned out to be a web apparition, because I and other victims were really hoping to pick his brain in order to learn why it was so easy to obtain a unanimous conviction in less than 2 hours.

Brad, after the Mint Warning in 2006, BvNH bent over backwards in order to appease the feds, eventually adding the following disclaimer to the $50 base SLDs minted in 2008:

“Notice not intended to be used as legal tender current money or coin”

Also included on the reverse were the acronyms PVBC MSRP and NFV:

Private Voluntary Barter Currency

Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price

Nominal Face Value

Obviously, the feds never intended to “work with us” at all, as their end-game was utter destruction.

Jerry, As for your comment about the 2 bars in the dollar sign:

I specifically asked BvNH about this years ago (before the raid), and he told me that it held no symbolic significance, beyond being a unique artistic attribute.

If any attribute of the evidentiary $10 SLD were significant, it would be the reverse, which included the metal content by weight, a toll free phone number and web address, as well as the disclaimers listed above.

Now that it has been over a month since conviction, and Ag has surpassed the all-time spot high, it is easier to see that the entire fed.gov operation was engineered, as Anne Tompkins admitted in here shameless press release, in order to “destroy” the Liberty Dollar before it could make more traction with the growing masses of disguntled FRN-fraud victims.

Their plan worked! Now all that remains are highly valued numismatics, and thousands of thoroughly pissed patrons who cannot redeem their warehouse receipts for the PMs which were confiscated!

27 MadMax May 14, 2011 at 6:16 pm

Hi Matt,

You said that “…the Defense got the Jury that they wanted, (middle age, white, conservative males with guns”. Wow! Where did you hear that? Sounds a bit raciest to me. Did they say that in court? Something like that would really tick me off. So are you a conservative male with guns? LOL

28 Freedom from tyranny May 26, 2011 at 5:00 pm

There is actually someone who has been in contact with the Obama
administration who is a mortgage strike orgranizer and he was planning in May to get hundreds or thousands of people to refuse to pay their mortgage payments in order to collapse the system in the United States. The last time I heard his plans are still in progress or he has started this already or they have been delayed or they have been postponed. THE CRIME IS THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO JAIL. Instead, they charge Mr. Nothaus with the “crime” of minting silver rounds because Mr. Nothaus is concerned about the health of the economy of the United States and was only trying to help in his own way. He was charged with domestic terrorism for “undermining peoples faith in the U.S. currency”. LOL !!! The people who are undermining the faith in the U.S. currency are the people in charge of the Federal Reserve and also the big spenders in the White House who are driving the U.S. economy into the ground through debt via wasteful spending. Conclusion: The real criminals go free and the good people are put in jail. In the Bible the prophet is recorded to say: “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.” I am sure glad I do not live in the U.S. since it won’t be long before it is turned into a Banana Republic with the idiots in Washington D.C. in charge.
Herman Cain for President !!! There is an Afro American president
everyone can be proud of.

29 Washington Death Cult February 3, 2012 at 4:57 pm

“we are duty bound as jurors to apply the law to the facts in the case as we found them without partiality.”

Dead wrong. But to be expected from one who apparently still thinks there exists such a thing as the ‘rule of law’ – a long-ago dispelled myth.

Look up jury nullification and learn how a free-people should act when sitting on a jury.

There is only Force. No laws – just statutes, codes, and regulations by the elite for the elite.

SVC

30 Richard- December 20, 2012 at 5:56 pm

The paper dollar is not legitimate is the defense to the charges. The federal reserve Act violates the Constitution-is the defense argument / this makes the liberty dollars constitutional by definition, more so than the monopoly money , 100 yrs old of the fed mob! It is just like the “war on drugs” verbal battle with the unconstitutional ommision-law, 18USCA841(a) and (b). = a Licensing LAw with penal punishment based on an executive branch regulation 21CFR1304 “A rx for a c.s must be issued..for a legitimate medical purpose (a controlled substance) or sudder the punishment of any person (not licensed under 18USCA)

31 Richard- December 20, 2012 at 6:08 pm

The fed Act stole the gold and credit of the “People ” of this great Nation in 1913! When will a Patriot Congress person stand up to demand the indictment of this mob of ponzi schemers. These schemers have been terrorists at least for 3 hundred to 3,000 yrs. Our Nation is now totally looted by THEIR Debts. Our gold stolen yrs ago. Congress sold their souls to the Devil. He will demnd full payment by them! Let us pray for them. Local militia must go to protect all schools from the gov false flags initiated by pharmodrugs and controlled zombies etc.

32 callcam August 5, 2013 at 1:11 am

So you’re going to follow along with the government’s cop-out and lies. The reason Bernard von NotHaus was prosecuted was that he was successful. His entire operation was vetted by the Treasury when he started, and they were O.K. with what he was doing until he had success with people using the Liberty Dollar in several localities nationwide. Then the U.S. Mint Director issued a statement warning the public of the “danger” associated with these coins. von NotHaus made the mistake of telling the truth, that his operation had been reviewed and okayed by the Treasury. How dare he correct a government official! So a case was brought against him in a North Carolina court. The case was shuffled about, and this dribble you’ve parroted is the government’s case.

If you want to see some real counterfeiting, go to the Moonlight Mint and take a look at some of the coins Daniel Carr has minted with U.S. Denver Mint presses, and U.S. Mint coins. And where did he get the dies? But they’re just “fantasy coins”. The government has no problem with these exact renditions. No, von NotHaus had a real solution to make people aware of the fiat money farce that has taken our economy beyond bankruptcy. He induced accountability; and we must not have any of that, not should we?

33 callcam August 7, 2013 at 7:35 am

Do you have any idea how much the Federal Reserve makes on bond interest from the American people each year? They suck billions each year from their Constitutionally illegal scam of being delegated to create fiat money and sell it to the U.S. government, when the Constitutional explicitly states that Congress, not a collection of banks are in charge of coining and printing our money.

The Constitution also allows for the use of gold and silver as a means of exchange, and was practiced readily during the early part of our history by the states, and during the era of territorial gold in the mid 1800’s. What von NotHaus has done is completely legal, and was therefore justified by the Treasury when he requested their review during the early going of the Liberty Dollar operation. They just don’t like that they gained some competition to threaten their illegal Federal Reserve monopoly, so they squashed it.

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